Slow development of BreezeBrowser Pro

[pavementartist]

Hello

I know I will probably get shot down in flames, but my year of free updates is just about over and in that time BreezeBrowser Pro has been developed from version 1.7 to 1.8.

I live in a free world and can make my own choices, but it makes me feel better to put my opinion online.

Development of this product (to my ignorant eye) seems to be slowing rather than speeding up. What are your plans re: product development, i.e. new features, for the forthcoming 12 months?

Thanks

John

[DavidB]

I think this is a fair point, fairly expressed. Having renewed my licence just before 1.8 went final, I have exactly the same view. Others may disagree with this opinion, but shooting down in flames is definitely out of order.

To some extent, it is up to us to tell Chris what we want. BB Pro has quite a mature feature set and user interface, and I suspect few of us would want either to be radically changed (as happened recently with Capture One for example). But we cannot ignore the impact LightRoom (and, to a lesser extent, Aperture) have had on the market, and, even if we do not happen to like these products, there is no doubt that they have changed expectations.

My own wish list (gathering together points I have made in other posts) is as follows.

Retain the simple interface and speed of use (vital!).
Make some functions (e.g. Proofs) more accessible by adding buttons to the toolbar.
Make batch updating of IPTC data more idiot- (=DavidB-) proof, particularly by adding a simple facility to batch update a single IPTC field.
Add a keyword search facility with a view to display the results (it might be slow, but slow is better than nothing).
Improve the RAW conversion dialogue, by making it resizeable, adding fixed aspect ratio cropping and a straightening tool, and finalising the (already useful) saving of settings.
This is a new one, but thinking about LightRoom/ACR, might it be possible to use the the facilities of the RAW dialogue to create adjusted JPEGs - essentially Proofs but with the advantage of individual adjustment and saved settings? This would save a lot of shelling out to other applications, and it would put proofing on the same footing as RAW conversion, which makes a lot of sense in my workflow.

I hope that this is a helpful way of taking the thread forward.

[Dave H]

I agree with both John and David's post especially the adding of fixed aspect ratio cropping :)

[Junction10]

1. Non-destructive crop tool accessible for JPGs too, processed during PROOF or HTML Gallery creation.

At the moment, I have to import the images into Lightroom or Photoshop just to do the crops, but for pinging in images remotely, it would be so much quicker for me if I could just do quick crops prior to them being resized for the picture desk (crop being made BEFORE resizing)

2. FTP Upload.. I suspect this is highly unlikely to happen, and can appreciate BBPro is NOT an FTP client.. but it would be nice to be able to have the images uploaded to the picture desk straight from proofing.


BreezeBrowser Pro is a fantastic product, and is essential to my workflow, so I'm quite happy with it as it is, but these features would be the icing on the cake for me, and save having to launch two other applications in my workflow.

J.

[DavidB]

1. Non-destructive crop tool accessible for JPGs too, processed during PROOF or HTML Gallery creation.
If I have understood this suggestion correctly, I think that my proposed facility for making proofs of JPEGs in the RAW conversion module (thereby turning it into a simpler - and perhaps more usable - version of the Develop module in LightRoom) would provide the capability, including saving the crop (and, I would hope, straightening) settings for later use.


2. FTP Upload.. I suspect this is highly unlikely to happen, and can appreciate BBPro is NOT an FTP client..
It's a pity to talk down the suggestion as you make it; certainly it is hardly unreasonable to ask that an application which makes HTML pages should have the facility to upload them.

One thing that was missing from my earlier list, but which I have mentioned previously, is drag-and drop between BB Pro and other file management applications; if one could but drag files from BB Pro into an FTP client or CD burner (or whatever) window, there would be less need to add those features to BB Pro itself.

[Chris Breeze]

Thanks for all the suggestions, they are very useful in helping me plan future development.

[Michael Engelen]

I agree with the suggestions expressed in the posts. My feature-wishlist is pretty short:
I miss a straigthening tool most since straigthening is my most frequently done operation after converting. I also found that I am very often about the same degree off level for some reason (so it would be nice to have that option for batch use).
Another great thing would be a masking tool to mask out dust spots (like DPP offers for some models)
Else there is all I need already included in BBPro :cool:

[Junction10]

Michael - yes good suggestion.. something akin to the crop/straighten tool in the Lightroom develop module would be great... although, Chris obviously needs to take care not to infringe any patents..


One other thing I just thought - in the proof mode, it would be really nice to be able to resize images to an uncompressed size in MB as well as pixel dimensions.. I've got a very useful Photoshop scripts that does it, but I haven't seen an application with it built in for many years (I can't remember if it was GraphicWorkshop that had the feature back in the days of Windows 3.1!).. but when a picture desk says "Send us a 7mb" or "9mb uncompressed file", it's a pain in the backside working out bitdepth, channels, and output width..

J

[PeterJHB]

I have been out of the loop for a while, but would like to contribute to this discussion, even if it is somewhat late.

First, I have not renewed my license because I am waiting for an upgrade that incorporates things that make it worth while for me. So, Chris ...?

I agree to the shopping lists above. Additionally:

- RAW conversion to be extended to other makes of camera - I have a Panasonic.

- In Thumbnail view, ability to show only specifically selected folders in the folder window on the left. For instance, all my images are in My Pictures, so that is all I wish to see in that window.

Peter

[hagax]

Hi,

I'm waiting for improvements that would justify upgrading BBpro from 1.7, too. The most important feature for me would be the possibility of cropping with a fixed ratio like 3:2 or 2:3.

Another nice but less important feature would be the ability to geotag photos from within BBpro like "locr GPS Photo" does. (Yes, I know and use the feature to automatically geotag pictures with DownloaderPro, but there's not always a GPS track available).

hagax

[nigeldh]

As I see it there are two issues here.
1. Is the yearly tithe we pay Chris, Lord of Breeze Browser, Earl of Downloader Pro. [tongue firmly in cheek]

2. Is the issue of what Breeze Browser does or, better, how it fits into one's work flow. Some of what folks are asking for from Breeze Browser take it into the realm of an image editing program like Helicon Filter or Bibble Pro. Or an image cataloguing & manipulating program like ThumbsPlus.
My wish list:
a. The same set of file name tokens in Breeze Browser and Downloader Pro.
b. Support for creating links on NTFS file systems. See sourceforge.net/projects/ntfslinkex. [Hard links only work on the same volume but with 1 TB external and internal disks on sale in the States for under $200, less of an issue.]
c. The ability to see child folders ala ACDSee Pro 2 and ThumbsPlus.
d. Right click drag and drop. The left click moves files.

For my workflow Downloader Pro & Breeze Browser are the perfect first steps. Further workflow details are in the thread: How can I tidy-up my muddled photo collection?

[chatzebussi]

- RAW conversion to be extended to other makes of camera - I have a Panasonic.

-


Peter

Hello Peter

Yes, quite! What shall I do, when I get my PANASONIC DMC-LX3??? I am so used to downloading with Downloader Pro and working with BBPro (that handles CANON RAW)...

Chatzebussi

P.S. Very much to my surprise "Q-Image" can now handle umpteen RAW formats thanks to a third-party raw-conversion product.

[PeterJHB]

What shall I do, when I get my PANASONIC DMC-LX3??? I am so used to downloading with Downloader Pro and working with BBPro (that handles CANON RAW)...

Well - I use Lightroom and sometimes Bibble for conversion. They both do a good job. I do NOT use Lightroom's management facilities.

Peter

[MikeD]

What about adding more support for creating web pages. There was a lot of this in the early stages of BB and its good but I still have to somehow link together loads of BBpro created single web pages into an overall site. Its a simple site with not much more than galleries of pages but still a pain to maintain using other software to try and link the BBpro galleries together and remember how to use all the different bits of linking software when I only use them very occasionally to overhaul the site.
Typically I would produce a framework for a site in one bit of software then produce all the single photo gallery pages in BBpro then maintain the single pages in BBpro but the overall site structure still depends on the other software - it would be much better if BBpro could do it all. A tall order I know to be able to link galleries without being fully fledged website generating software.

[Chris Breeze]

One way to handle this is to use server side scripting (e.g. PHP) on the home page to dynamically create a listing of the available galleries.

[dhphoto]

I just renewed (after a couple of years out) and have to say I'm underwhelmed by the changes. In fact I don't see any.

Still the clunky RAW converter (with no zoom preview), no rotation, still have to remember to remove the option to see image in high quality if I don't want every shot I view converted from RAW.

It's not easy to make DPP look good but for RAW BB Pro does :)

I upgraded purely because I wanted to see focus points on my 1Ds3, which it does, but not on my 450D, which is a shame.

Thankfully it's not an expensive upgrade, and I use the html tools often. But it's a product thats rather showing it's age IMHO

David

[DavidB]

I just renewed (after a couple of years out) and have to say I'm underwhelmed by the changes. In fact I don't see any.In many ways this is a fair point. However, we do need to give credit for everything that has happened 'under the hood' (new camera models, Vista, standards changes etc.). Also, what worked for me when I first used BreezeBrowser still works for me in BB Pro today. The majority of applications I have used have 'fixed' things that work ...


Still the clunky RAW converter (with no zoom preview), no rotation, still have to remember to remove the option to see image in high quality if I don't want every shot I view converted from RAW.Not so much 'clunky' as 'primitive', perhaps. I've already posted in this thread on the changes I'd like to see. As regards High Quality, see my separate post in the thread you started on that subject.


It's not easy to make DPP look good but for RAW BB Pro does :)Now here we do part company. I find DPP a really irritating application, which promises much and then leaves you in the lurch. BB Pro is much more 'honest'; in fact, it remains my converter of choice for initial batch conversion of a group of images at 'as shot' settings.


But it's a product that's rather showing it's age IMHOAs are we all, sadly. However, I agree with your essential point. The market is now being defined by applications like Lightroom, which is a pity, because the considerable virtues of BB Pro (among them simple and quick operation, standards compliance, and stability) are relatively unspectacular, and tend to be undervalued in an environment where impressive features are what sell software.

[Orio]

One feature I would find very useful: a "copy/paste all settings" button or whatever (maybe right click menu or even better keyboard command) in the RAW editor. WIth the possibility to also save a setting for future uses.
The way it currently works - some settings are remembered (e.g. the postprocessing settings) and after you exit RAW, they are applied to the next time you open RAW (something that sometimes I would like to avoid, in fact). While other settings, such as those that are camera dependent (e.g. canon picture styles) are not remembered, and so, if you want to convert say 100 pictures using the monochrome canon style, you have to manually apply it 100 times...
Now, wouldn't it be much better if, once I have found a base setting that I like for the series, I could copy it with a click, and apply it to any pictures I want in the raw editor, with another simple click?
And best of all, say I make a nice set for B&W conversion, with monocrhome on and more contrast etc., what if I could save it and load it back one month later for another set of pictures...?

[dhphoto]

In many ways this is a fair point. However, we do need to give credit for everything that has happened 'under the hood' (new camera models, Vista, standards changes etc.). Also, what worked for me when I first used BreezeBrowser still works for me in BB Pro today. The majority of applications I have used have 'fixed' things that work ...

Not so much 'clunky' as 'primitive', perhaps. I've already posted in this thread on the changes I'd like to see. As regards High Quality, see my separate post in the thread you started on that subject.

Now here we do part company. I find DPP a really irritating application, which promises much and then leaves you in the lurch. BB Pro is much more 'honest'; in fact, it remains my converter of choice for initial batch conversion of a group of images at 'as shot' settings.

As are we all, sadly. However, I agree with your essential point. The market is now being defined by applications like Lightroom, which is a pity, because the considerable virtues of BB Pro (among them simple and quick operation, standards compliance, and stability) are relatively unspectacular, and tend to be undervalued in an environment where impressive features are what sell software.

I think the RAW converter is terribly clunky, you have no option to resize the image, you have to open boxes (and more irritatingly move thm out of the picture area) to adjust settings and compared with Lightroom the converter is terribly slow. DPP has matured a lot if you haven't used it lately, but Lightroom 2 is the one for me now.

BB Pro remains one of my most used programs due to several features. The batch rename is easy to use, the viewer makes it easy to resort thumbnails and the HTML gallery maker is a godsend.

I was still happy to part with a few quid to buy an update (as I said I want to see the focus points for my 1Ds3) I was just surprised how much hasn't changed.

David

[DavidB]

No point in esoteric discussion about the meaning of words, but what I meant was that what is in the BB Pro RAW converter is quite easy to use, and works consistently and well. It just lacks features that I would expect to see in a RAW converter these days (which I think is your main point as well). But it also has the merit that its conversions at default settings are more faithful to the original than other converters I use, so it is at its best when doing a batch of 'fire and forget' conversions.

I agree with you about the speed, but on my Vista 64 machine it is acceptable. And at least the user interface is quick, which cannot always be said of Adobe applications, even on fast machines.

Things not changing has merit; new versions have no learning curve. But I have already said that, in my view, the user interface is now (more than) ready for further development. Features have been added incrementally (and often not all that visibly), and someone coming from, say, Lightroom to BB Pro will feel that they are taking a big step back in time, whereas in fact (as you imply) there are many significant things that BB Pro does better than Lightroom.

[dhphoto]

whereas in fact (as you imply) there are many significant things that BB Pro does better than Lightroom.

Indeed there are but RAW isn't one of them. With so many good converters around I think it just might be an idea for BB to go a different way that's all. It would clearly take Chris a lot of time and money to significantly update the RAW module and I don't really think it's worth it, better to do something else like jazz up the web galleries or something else clever.

[DavidB]

... I think it just might be an idea for BB to go a different way that's all ... better to do something else like jazz up the web galleries or something else clever.A lot depends on how the libraries Chris uses for RAW conversion (the Canon SDK and DCRAW) develop in future; you will have seen from other threads that there are question marks over the SDK at the moment.

I wouldn't abandon RAW conversion in BB Pro completely: as I've said, it has its place. For me, a significant part of the 'something clever' (apart from user interface changes) would be a merging of RAW conversion and Proofs, as there is already so much commonality between them, and a common interface (as in ACR or Lightroom for example) makes the program easier to learn and use.

[Dan_Honemann]

Piggybacking on this topic, a few suggestions for a future release I'd love to see implemented in my favorite image browser:

1. Using tags (and/or ranks) for bookmarking images in a large collection.

I'd love to see an option under View for "Goto Next Tag" or "Goto Next Ranking n[1-5]." There are times when I am working with a gallery of over 1,000 images and I tag an image somewhere in the middle (like the "you may kiss the bride" shot in a wedding) and I want to find that tag quickly.

Yes, I can change the sort order to move the tags (or ranks) upfront, but this is a different operation: I want to quickly jump to the position where this tagged image is in the _current_ order of thumbs--that is, use the image tag as a kind of bookmark or placeholder.

2. Use the create html gallery feature as a way of archiving images to discs (either as a backup or a deliverable to a client).

I do this now with a customized html template, but it would be nice if BBP automated the task of creating a gallery with (the option of) copying or moving the original images into a subfolder (along with a link under each large image view to the original), and divided the entire gallery up into portions to fit archival media like CDs and DVDs. BBP wouldn't need to provide the disc burning procedures--I'm happy enough to use Nero for this--but it sure would be convenient to have it help break up the gallery into separate chunks by media size. There could also be the option to include an entire gallery on each disc or just a gallery for the images contained on that particular disc.

It would also be great if html galleries (archival or otherwise) could be built from raw files using the embedded jpegs (as the thumbnail view of BBP does for its own display).

I know that Michael Tape's excellent Archive Creator does this already, but that appers--unfortunately--to be an abandoned product, and it would be nice to be able use BBP for this task.

3. Add right-click and shortcut options during the slideshow view for (a) image properties, and (b) jump to editor with the current image. This would prevent the need for having to escape from the slideshow just to see some information not presented in the caption, or to edit the current image.

Dan

[Chris Breeze]

Thanks for the suggestions.

The HTML generator already uses the embedded JPEGs in raw files unless the "Convert RAW images for highest quality" option is set.

[Orio]

I am a Canon user and I hope that BBPro NEVER abandons the Raw conversion and I hope that it will always use the Canon SDK !
The results I obtain with BB Pro are superior to those of any other converter including the "sophisticated" ones. The colours with BB Pro are true while other programs like Lightroom are not able to render the true Canon colours.
It would be a tragedy for me the day that BB Pro should abandon Raw conversion and the Canon SDK !